"Concise Guide to Child and Adolescent Psychiatry" by Mina K. Dulcan, Rachel R. Ballard, Poonam Jha made it to BookAuthority's Best Child Psychiatry Audiobooks of All Time!
What if the way we think about children's mental health is missing a crucial piece? Child psychiatry has evolved beyond labels and quick fixes to embrace a deeper understanding of young minds shaped by trauma, development, and brain science. Today, more than ever, this field holds the key to addressing challenges that affect children globally, from emotional trauma to neurodevelopmental disorders.
Leading voices like Bruce D. Perry, whose work with severely traumatized children has reshaped trauma-informed care, and Stephen Stahl, a pioneer in pediatric psychopharmacology, have propelled child psychiatry into a new era. Their insights, alongside others such as Serena Wieder and David Barlow, offer nuanced approaches that blend neuroscience, compassion, and clinical rigor.
While these expert-curated books provide proven frameworks, readers seeking content tailored to their specific child psychiatry interests—whether clinical, parental, or educational—might consider creating a personalized Child Psychiatry book that builds on these insights for a truly customized learning path.
Publisher's Weekly, a leading book review publication, highlights Dr. Bruce D. Perry’s expertise as a child psychiatrist who has worked extensively with traumatized children. They note his vivid and accessible explanation of how early trauma affects brain development, emphasizing how this book reshaped their understanding of childhood stress responses. "In beautifully written, fascinating accounts of experience working with emotionally stunted and traumatized children, child psychiatrist Perry educates readers about how early-life stress and violence affects the developing brain." This perspective offers profound insights for anyone seeking to grasp the complexities of trauma in child psychiatry. Additionally, Library Journal underscores its importance for a broad audience, including parents and policymakers, while Booklist points to Perry’s compelling argument for early intervention to prevent sociopathy.
“In beautifully written, fascinating accounts of experience working with emotionally stunted and traumatized children, child psychiatrist Perry educates readers about how early-life stress and violence affects the developing brain. He offers simple yet vivid illustrations of the stress response and the brain's mechanisms with facts and images that crystallize in the mind without being too detailed and confusing.”
Bruce D. Perry, M.D., Ph.D. is the Senior Fellow of The ChildTrauma Academy, a not-for-profit organization based in Houston and adjunct Professor in the Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at Northwestern University School of Medicine in Chicago. Dr. Perry is the author of numerous journal articles and books, including the bestselling The Boy Who Was Raised As A Dog, based on his work with maltreated children. He has held various academic positions and has been involved in groundbreaking research on childhood trauma and its effects on brain development.
Bruce D. Perry draws from decades of experience working with children exposed to severe trauma, including genocide survivors and victims of family violence, to reveal how such experiences reshape young minds. You’ll learn about the brain’s response to extreme stress and discover compassionate approaches to healing that combine neuroscience with empathy. For instance, Perry’s case studies illustrate how nurturing relationships can reverse damage caused by early neglect. This book is particularly insightful if you’re involved in child care, therapy, or education, offering a nuanced understanding of trauma’s impact without oversimplifying complex brain functions.
Stephen Stahl, professor of psychiatry and a leading authority in the field, highlights this book’s clear and organized approach to pediatric psychopharmacology. His endorsement reflects how this edition guided him through understanding both approved and off-label medication uses for children and adolescents. He notes its practical insights on managing pediatric cases differently than adults, making it an essential resource during his clinical practice and teaching.
“The fourth edition of Child and Adolescent Clinical Psychopharmacology Made Simple presents pediatric disorders and their treatments in a highly readable and well-organized style. Not only are agents formally approved for pediatric use covered, but so are the many drugs frequently prescribed ‘off-label.’ Numerous tips are also included on how pediatric management both overlaps and differs from adults. A must-read for those learning to treat children and adolescents.”
John D. Preston PsyD ABPP, John H. O'Neal MD, Mary C. Talaga RPh PhD, Bret A. Moore PsyD ABPP(you?)·
About the Author
John D. Preston, PsyD, ABPP, is a licensed psychologist, and author or coauthor of twenty books. He is professor emeritus of psychology at Alliant International University, and has also served on the faculty of the UC Davis School of Medicine. He has lectured widely in the United States and abroad. He is the recipient of the Mental Health Association’s President’s Award for contributions to the mental health professions, and is a fellow of the American Psychological Association.
John D. Preston PsyD, ABPP, brings decades of clinical psychology experience to this accessible guide on psychopharmacology for children and adolescents. You’ll find clear explanations of medications used for disorders like ADHD, bipolar disorder, and eating disorders, coupled with updated DSM-5 criteria and practical considerations such as side effects and toxicity signs. The book also addresses nuances like off-label prescribing and non-medication adjuncts, making it useful whether you’re a pediatrician, therapist, or educator managing young patients. Its fact sheets and treatment guidelines provide straightforward tools rather than overwhelming jargon, helping you make informed decisions about pediatric psychopharmacology.
This AI-created book on child psychiatry and trauma recovery is crafted precisely around your background and goals. By sharing what aspects of child mental health intrigue you and your experience level, you receive content that matches your unique learning path. This personalized AI book goes beyond generic texts, focusing on the specific trauma and developmental challenges you want to understand and address. It’s designed to give you a clear, customized journey through complex topics, making your study of child psychiatry more relevant and effective.
TailoredRead AI creates personalized nonfiction books that adapt to your unique background, goals, and interests. Instead of reading generic content, you get a custom book written specifically for your profession, experience level, and learning objectives. Whether you're a beginner looking for fundamentals or an expert seeking advanced insights, TailoredRead crafts a book that speaks directly to you. Learn more.
This tailored book explores the intricate landscape of child psychiatry and trauma recovery with a personalized lens. It examines fundamental concepts such as developmental psychopathology and trauma-informed care while adapting the content to match your specific background and interests. The book delves into nuanced approaches for understanding emotional and behavioral challenges in children, integrating the latest research on brain development and recovery pathways. By focusing on your goals, it reveals pathways to enhance therapeutic techniques and offers a customized synthesis of expert knowledge that bridges clinical wisdom with your unique learning needs. This personalized approach ensures you engage deeply with material that truly resonates with your objectives in child mental health.
Booklist, a respected literary authority, highlights this guide as an essential resource for parents and caregivers dealing with borderline personality disorder in children and young adults. Recognizing the emotional toll such challenges impose, they emphasize how the book balances clinical insight with practical strategies for family dynamics and self-care. "This is a valuable, practical resource for parents and caregivers of children, from age five through adulthood, who exhibit signs of, or have been diagnosed with, borderline personality disorder (BPD)," they note, underscoring its role in offering hope and actionable understanding for families navigating this difficult terrain.
“This is a valuable, practical resource for parents and caregivers of children, from age five through adulthood, who exhibit signs of, or have been diagnosed with, borderline personality disorder (BPD). Useful for both parents just learning about BPD and those with years of familiarity, the book goes through strategies of care for children with the disorder as well as tools for caregiver self-care, providing many useful resources along the way. One particularly unique and helpful tool placed throughout the book are charts comparing BPD with other disorders. With chapters dedicated to family dynamics and working with siblings, the book ultimately offers a roadmap for people to understand the complexities of the disorder, not just from a clinical perspective, but through personal accounts from people who have BPD. ‘When we began this book, the parents we interviewed asked us to include stories of hope,’ write the authors. ‘We thought such tales were going to be hard to find, but we had plenty—way more than we can use.’ Highly recommended for all libraries.”
Randi Kreger, Christine Adamec MBA, Daniel S. Lobel PhD, Fran L. Porter MA BEd(you?)·
About the Author
Randi Kreger is a best-selling author of books about borderline personality disorder. Her site, www.BPDCentral.com, also offers a number of specialized booklets and CDs for family members. The site is also a conduit to her online family support community 'Welcome to Oz.' Christine Adamec, MBA, is a self-help author whose books include When Your Adult Child Breaks Your Heart and The Grandfamily Guidebook. She has authored and coauthored forty books, and is a member of the American Society of Journalists and Authors. Daniel S. Lobel, PhD, practices clinical psychology in Katonah, NY. He is author of two books: When Your Daughter Has BPD and When Your Mother Has Borderline Personality Disorder, and numerous blogs on Psychology Today. He has taught at Mount Sinai School of Medicine, State University of New York, Hofstra School of Law, and lectures with the National Alliance of the Mentally Ill (NAMI). Foreword writer Fran L. Porter, BEd, MA, is author of When the Ship Has No Stabilizers, a memoir about her daughter, who has BPD.
Drawing from extensive clinical and personal experience, Randi Kreger and her coauthors deliver a focused guide for parents navigating the challenges of raising a child with borderline personality disorder (BPD). You’ll explore how BPD manifests differently across childhood into adulthood, gaining specific communication strategies and boundary-setting techniques designed to maintain your well-being without sacrificing your relationship. The book also offers clear comparisons between BPD and other disorders, alongside real parental stories that deepen understanding beyond textbook definitions. If you’re a parent or caregiver looking for targeted, realistic approaches to support your child while preserving your own stability, this book lays out what you need to know.
Best for understanding child behavior neuroscience
Audiobook version available
Serena Wieder, Clinical Director at the Profectum Foundation, brings a wealth of experience in developmental challenges and praises this book for changing how you view behavioral issues. She points out how Dr. Delahooke "embraces every parent and professional puzzling over behavioral challenges" by challenging assumptions and guiding you to compassionate, neurodiversity-respecting approaches. This perspective helped Serena rethink interventions to better support children’s progress and secure relationships. Additionally, Stephen Porges, a distinguished scientist at Indiana University, highlights the book's role in shifting paradigms away from traditional punitive models toward neurobiologically-informed treatments that yield more effective results.
“This book will embrace every parent and professional puzzling over behavioral challenges and make you question the assumptions about their meaning and re-evaluate how to help. Dr. Delahooke reframes our understanding by integrating perspectives from development, brain science, mental health, and child and parent experiences using example after example to guide you towards insight and compassionate approaches that are respectful of neurodiversity. Beyond Behaviors will help every child and family progress, feel safe, enjoy relationships, and develop to their fullest.”
Mona Delahooke is an internationally recognized pediatric psychologist specializing in understanding children's behaviors through the lens of neuroscience and compassion. With years of experience working with children and families, she emphasizes the importance of relational safety in addressing behavioral challenges. Her insights are grounded in the latest scientific research, making her a trusted voice in the field of child psychology.
What if everything you knew about children's behavioral challenges was wrong? Mona Delahooke, an internationally recognized pediatric psychologist, argues that behaviors are just signals reflecting deeper neurodevelopmental and emotional factors, not mere misbehavior. You learn to interpret behaviors in the context of relational safety and individual brain differences, gaining tools such as worksheets and charts to support children labeled with disorders like ODD, autism, or trauma responses. This book benefits parents, educators, and professionals seeking to move beyond punishment toward compassionate, brain-based understanding that fosters resilience and secure relationships.
Gregory Fritz, professor of Psychiatry in the Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, highlights this book as a crucial resource for clinicians beginning to navigate the complexities of child and adolescent mental health assessment. He emphasizes how the authors’ extensive experience shines through their accessible prose and practical DSM-5 application. "This extremely accessible text is designed to help beginning clinicians enter the daunting world of child and adolescent mental health interviewing and assessment," Fritz notes, appreciating how real clinical interviews make the concepts tangible and approachable.
“This extremely accessible text is designed to help beginning clinicians enter the daunting world of child and adolescent mental health interviewing and assessment. Two seasoned psychiatrists share their considerable experience with various types of interviewing approaches, multiple levels of child development, and the practical use of DSM-5. Their clear, jargon-free prose includes actual clinical interviews that bring the material vividly to life.”
James Morrison, MD, is Affiliate Professor of Psychiatry at Oregon Health and Science University in Portland. He has extensive experience in both the private and public sectors. With his acclaimed practical books--including DSM-5 Made Easy; Diagnosis Made Easier, Second Edition; The First Interview, Fourth Edition; Interviewing Children and Adolescents, Second Edition; When Psychological Problems Mask Medical Disorders, Second Edition; and The Mental Health Clinician's Workbook--Dr. Morrison has guided hundreds of thousands of mental health professionals and students through the complexities of clinical evaluation and diagnosis.
James Morrison, MD, a seasoned psychiatrist and professor with broad clinical experience, co-authored this book to equip clinicians with practical skills for interviewing young patients, from infants to adolescents. You’ll find detailed guidance on using age-appropriate techniques like play and drawing to engage children effectively, alongside annotated transcripts that illustrate real interview dynamics. The book dives deep into applying DSM-5 criteria with clarity, offering prototype descriptions, coding notes, and disorder-specific pointers that sharpen diagnostic accuracy. If you’re involved in child mental health assessment, this book guides you through the nuanced communication and evaluation strategies essential for reliable diagnoses.
This AI-created book on behavior management is tailored to your experience and goals in child psychiatry. You share your background, skill level, and the specific behavioral challenges you're focused on, and the book is crafted to address exactly what you need to learn. By concentrating on your interests, it offers a clear path through the complexities of managing child behaviors with focused, actionable steps. This personalized approach helps you achieve meaningful progress efficiently without sifting through unrelated material.
TailoredRead AI creates personalized nonfiction books that adapt to your unique background, goals, and interests. Instead of reading generic content, you get a custom book written specifically for your profession, experience level, and learning objectives. Whether you're a beginner looking for fundamentals or an expert seeking advanced insights, TailoredRead crafts a book that speaks directly to you. Learn more.
This personalized book explores step-by-step plans tailored to managing behavioral challenges in children, focusing on your unique interests and goals. It provides a clear, practical pathway through complex child psychiatry concepts, bridging expert knowledge with your specific background to make learning both engaging and relevant. The content covers assessment techniques, intervention planning, and progress tracking, helping you understand and address behavioral issues effectively. By focusing on your personalized needs, this book reveals focused interventions designed to achieve measurable improvements within 30 days. It invites you to engage deeply with the subject, examining the nuances of child behavior and therapeutic responses in a way that matches your experience and aspirations.
David Barlow, a professor emeritus at Boston University and founder of the Center for Anxiety and Related Disorders, emphasizes this book's unmatched depth in evidence-based practices for young patients. He appreciates the thorough coverage of clinical challenges and the guidance on implementing therapies across settings, noting, "Nobody understands evidence-based practices for children and adolescents—their development, evaluation, and implementation, as well as their strengths and limitations—with the depth and breadth of Weisz and Kazdin." His endorsement highlights how this text has become essential for clinicians and academics alike. Similarly, Wendy Silverman from Yale University praises the book's balance of scientific evidence and clinical application, calling it a crucial resource for advancing child psychiatry.
Professor, Psychology and Psychiatry, Boston University
“Nobody understands evidence-based practices for children and adolescents—their development, evaluation, and implementation, as well as their strengths and limitations—with the depth and breadth of Weisz and Kazdin. The third edition has thorough coverage of almost all problems confronting clinicians and a very important section on implementing evidence-based interventions in a variety of clinical settings. Every clinician and clinical scientist will want this definitive resource on their bookshelves, and instructors will find it ideal for graduate courses covering psychological interventions.”
John R. Weisz, PhD, ABPP, is Professor of Psychology in the Department of Psychology at Harvard University, and at Harvard Medical School. He is a past president of the Society of Clinical Child and Adolescent Psychology and the International Society for Research in Child and Adolescent Psychopathology. Dr. Weisz is a recipient of the James McKeen Cattell Lifetime Achievement Award from the Association for Psychological Science, the Klaus Grawe Award for the Advancement of Innovative Research in Clinical Psychology and Psychotherapy from the Klaus Grawe Foundation in Switzerland, and the Sarah Gund Prize for Research and Mentorship in Child Mental Health from the Child Mind Institute’s Scientific Research Council. He served for 8 years as President and CEO of the Judge Baker Children’s Center, an affiliate of Harvard Medical School. Dr. Weisz’s research involves development and testing of psychotherapy programs for children and adolescents, particularly transdiagnostic approaches designed for implementation in clinical service settings, plus meta-analyses to characterize and inform psychotherapy research.
John R. Weisz, a Harvard professor with extensive leadership in child psychology, and Alan E. Kazdin have crafted a resource that lays out evidence-based psychotherapies for children and adolescents with remarkable clarity. You’ll explore detailed chapters each dedicated to specific therapy models, where the developers themselves explain session structures and the supporting research on effectiveness. The book also tackles complex issues like personalizing treatments and integrating neuroscience advances, making it insightful for clinicians working with diverse conditions from autism to self-injury. If you're involved in child mental health, this book offers a needed foundation for understanding and applying proven therapeutic approaches.
Feder D. Joshua is a recognized expert in child and adolescent psychiatry whose practical approach to medication management shines through this book. His extensive clinical experience informs the clear, concise format that helps healthcare professionals quickly access vital drug information. This focused resource reflects Joshua’s commitment to bridging the gap between complex pharmacology and everyday psychiatric practice, making medication choices more transparent and manageable for clinicians working with young patients.
Feder D Joshua, Tien Elizabeth, Puzantian Talia(you?)·
About the Author
Feder D. Joshua is a recognized expert in child and adolescent psychiatry, providing valuable insights into medication management for young patients. His work focuses on practical applications and clinical guidance, making him a trusted resource for healthcare professionals in the field.
What happens when deep expertise in child psychiatry meets medication management? Feder D. Joshua, a seasoned child and adolescent psychiatrist, offers a straightforward yet thorough reference that distills complex pharmacological information into accessible one-page fact sheets. You’ll find clear details on dosage, mechanisms, costs, and clinical pearls for over 70 commonly prescribed medications, including recent additions like Adzenys XR-ODT. This book suits clinicians and trainees seeking quick, reliable guidance to inform treatment decisions without wading through dense texts. While it’s not a narrative or theoretical work, it delivers exactly what practitioners need: concise, practical drug data tailored to child psychiatry.
Mina K. Dulcan, M.D., serves as Professor and Head of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry at Northwestern University and Lurie Children's Hospital, bringing decades of clinical leadership to this guide. Her distinguished role in academic medicine underscores the book's authority and relevance, especially as it reflects current DSM-5 updates and evidence-based treatments. This book emerges from Dr. Dulcan's commitment to equipping clinicians and trainees with accessible yet rigorous knowledge essential for navigating today’s pediatric mental health landscape.
Mina K. Dulcan, Rachel R. Ballard, Poonam Jha, Julie M. Sadhu(you?)·
About the Author
Mina K. Dulcan, M.D., is Margaret C. Osterman Professor of Child Psychiatry and Head of the Department of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry at the Ann & Robert H. Lurie Children's Hospital of Chicago; and Professor of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences and Pediatrics and Chief of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry at Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine in Chicago, Illinois.
Drawing from extensive clinical expertise, Mina K. Dulcan and her co-authors offer a distilled exploration of pediatric mental health that keeps pace with evolving research and diagnostic standards. You’ll find precise updates on DSM-5 criteria alongside streamlined chapters covering diagnostic categories, treatment options including pharmacological approaches, and practical resources for families and professionals alike. This guide balances brevity with depth, making complex topics accessible without sacrificing nuance—such as the nuanced pharmacotherapy chapter or the quick-reference diagnostic tables. It’s well-suited for medical and mental health trainees, clinicians seeking an efficient refresher, and allied professionals working with youth, but less ideal if you want exhaustive theoretical exploration.
Anita Thapar is a leading expert in child and adolescent psychiatry, affiliated with Cardiff University’s Institute of Psychological Medicine and Clinical Neurosciences. Her extensive research in neuropsychiatric genetics and genomics informs this textbook, which integrates scientific advances with clinical application. This edition broadens its scope with new chapters on systems neuroscience and global psychiatry, providing a valuable resource for those dedicated to advancing child mental health.
Anita Thapar, Daniel S. Pine, James F. Leckman, Stephen Scott, Margaret J. Snowling, Eric A. Taylor(you?)·
About the Author
Anita Thapar is a leading expert in child and adolescent psychiatry, affiliated with Cardiff University, where she works at the Institute of Psychological Medicine and Clinical Neurosciences. She has contributed significantly to the field through her research and publications, focusing on neuropsychiatric genetics and genomics.
Anita Thapar and her co-authors leverage decades of clinical and research expertise to present a definitive guide on child and adolescent psychiatry. This edition deepens your understanding of diagnostic frameworks like DSM-5 and explores emerging topics such as systems neuroscience and infant mental health. You gain a nuanced grasp of developmental psychopathology, resilience, and relationship-based treatments, all supported by international perspectives. Whether you're training or practicing in mental health or pediatric care, the chapters offer detailed insights into assessment and intervention strategies that reflect current scientific consensus and clinical realities.
Joshua D. Feder, MD, a practicing child psychiatrist and editor-in-chief of The Carlat Child Psychiatry Report, brings his clinical expertise and advocacy experience to this book. Alongside Elizabeth Tien, MD, and PharmD Talia Puzantian, they offer a fact-based guide designed to support psychiatrists with concise medication information and practical treatment frameworks, reflecting their combined roles in clinical practice, research, and psychiatric education.
Joshua D Feder, Elizabeth Tien, Talia Puzantian(you?)·
About the Author
Joshua D. Feder, MD, is a child psychiatrist active in clinical practice, research, and advocacy. He serves as editor-in-chief of The Carlat Child Psychiatry Report. Elizabeth Tien, MD, is a community psychiatrist at the Los Angeles County Department of Mental Health and a board member of The Carlat Child Psychiatry Report. Talia Puzantian, PharmD, BCPP, is a professor of clinical sciences at Keck Graduate Institute School of Pharmacy and Health Sciences in Claremont, CA. She is the deputy editor of The Carlat Report newsletters and co-author of the Medication Fact Book for Psychiatric Practice.
After analyzing clinical cases and pharmacological data, Joshua D. Feder and colleagues developed a resource tailored for child and adolescent psychiatry practitioners seeking quick access to medication facts. This book delivers concise, single-page fact sheets covering over 70 commonly prescribed drugs, including dosage, pharmacokinetics, and cost considerations, alongside 14 treatment algorithms to streamline patient care decisions. You'll find updated chapters on complementary treatments and essential appendices like informed consent and rating scales, making it both a practical and detailed reference. If you're involved in child psychiatry medication management, this guide offers clear assessments without overwhelming detail, though it assumes some baseline clinical experience.
The best Child Psychiatry books and more, in your inbox each week. No account needed.
Conclusion
Across these 10 books, clear themes emerge: the imperative of trauma-informed care, the nuanced management of pediatric psychopharmacology, and the power of evidence-based psychotherapy. Each book offers a unique lens—whether through clinical interviewing techniques, compassionate parenting strategies, or the latest in developmental psychopathology.
If you’re a clinician facing diagnostic challenges, starting with Interviewing Children and Adolescents alongside Evidence-Based Psychotherapies for Children and Adolescents can sharpen your assessment and treatment skills. Parents navigating complex behaviors may find Stop Walking on Eggshells for Parents and Beyond Behaviors offer practical, compassionate guidance.
Alternatively, you can create a personalized Child Psychiatry book to bridge the gap between general principles and your specific situation. These books can help you accelerate your learning journey with trusted, expert-validated knowledge.
Frequently Asked Questions
I'm overwhelmed by choice – which book should I start with?
Start with "THE BOY WHO WAS RAISED AS A DOG" for a powerful introduction to trauma's impact on children, or "Interviewing Children and Adolescents" if you want practical diagnostic skills. These provide foundational insights for understanding child psychiatry's core challenges.
Are these books too advanced for someone new to Child Psychiatry?
Not at all. Books like "Beyond Behaviors" and "Stop Walking on Eggshells for Parents" are accessible for beginners, blending scientific insights with practical advice, making them suitable for parents and professionals new to the field.
What's the best order to read these books?
Consider starting with trauma and behavior-focused books like "THE BOY WHO WAS RAISED AS A DOG" and "Beyond Behaviors," then move to clinical guides such as "Interviewing Children and Adolescents" and medication references for a well-rounded understanding.
Do I really need to read all of these, or can I just pick one?
You can pick based on your needs. For medication info, choose "Child and Adolescent Clinical Psychopharmacology Made Simple." For therapy techniques, "Evidence-Based Psychotherapies for Children and Adolescents" is ideal. Each book serves distinct purposes.
Which books focus more on theory vs. practical application?
"Rutter's Child and Adolescent Psychiatry" offers in-depth theory and developmental psychopathology, while "Stop Walking on Eggshells for Parents" and "Beyond Behaviors" emphasize practical strategies for caregivers and professionals.
Can I get tailored guidance instead of reading multiple books?
Yes. While these books offer expert knowledge, personalized content can adapt to your unique goals and background. Consider creating a personalized Child Psychiatry book to complement expert insights with targeted, actionable advice.
📚 Love this book list?
Help fellow book lovers discover great books, share this curated list with others!